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Five Babies in Five Minutes—A Quints Story | Your Pregnancy Matters

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Your Pregnancy Matters

November 14, 2017

Your Pregnancy Matters

Robyn Horsager-Boehrer, M. D. Obstetrics and Gynecology

Patricia Santiago-Munoz, M.D. Obstetrics and Gynecology

Dr. Santiago-Munoz, her team, and the Jones' quintuplets

In August 2017, an alert flickered across my email: The Jones quintuplets were celebrating their fifth birthday!

It’s hard to believe so much time has passed since Aug. 9, 2012, the day we delivered Carrie and Gavin Jones’ five preemies in five minutes at the old St. Paul hospital here in Dallas. The milestone prompted me to reach back through my collection of photos from their birth – and to recall the weeks of planning to ensure a safe experience for the babies and their mother.

The success of the delivery was due to a massive team effort, expertise, and careful attention to detail. In the days leading up to the births, Patricia Santiago-Munoz, M.D., and Julie Lo, M.D., who worked together to deliver the babies via cesarean section, participated in drills with the delivery and neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) teams to make sure everything was ready to go. Below, Dr. Santiago-Munoz shares her perspective from the moment Carrie was referred to us mid-pregnancy all the way through the successful delivery of the quints.

Preparing to deliver five babies

Carrie and Gavin came to us for care when Carrie was close to the middle of her pregnancy. They wanted to be close to family, and to have the expertise of our maternal fetal medicine team, which cares for women with complex or high-risk pregnancies, including higher order multiples. We recommended that Carrie be admitted to the hospital five weeks later. She was heavy and tired from carrying all of those babies!

Carrie required specialized care to protect her health and the quints. We scheduled weekly visits to evaluate her health and multiple ultrasounds to monitor the babies’ progress and growth. Carrie needed weekly iron infusions to meet her nutritional needs as the growing babies pulled resources from her body. Prenatal iron-deficiency anemia is fairly common in single-baby pregnancies. Just think about five babies sucking up all of your nutrients! Carrie also dealt with cholestasis of pregnancy, a condition that causes severe itching due to hormone changes.

Despite these challenges, Carrie was healthy during the pregnancy. We were amazed that she didn’t develop gestational diabetes or severe preeclampsia, two common pregnancy conditions that can lead to health risks for moms and babies. Both Carrie’s parents and Gavin’s gave their full support, helping to care for the Joneses’ older son, Isaac, and taking on responsibilities in their home while Carrie was hospitalized. And as the family rallied around Carrie, Gavin, and their son, my team huddled and planned what would be one of our most challenging deliveries to date.

We’ve put together a photo montage in honor of the quints’ fifth birthday, including a behind-the-scenes glimpse at what it took to deliver the five preemies. Relive some of the special moments and the weeks of preparation and planning leading up to that extraordinary day. 

Planning for the delivery

For several weeks, the team prepared everything for the delivery – literally everything, from tiny labeled blankets and nursery beds all the way to security detail at the hospital.

One of the most important factors in our planning was who would be involved in the delivery and aftercare of the babies and Carrie. Our “hands-on” delivery team would include Dr. Lo as surgical assistant, two of our maternal fetal medicine fellows, a very experienced scrub nurse, and myself as the delivering physician. We recommended a C-section because, with that many babies to deliver, it’s hard to monitor all of their heart rates at once to make sure everyone is tolerating labor. Also, there was a high chance that the babies wouldn’t all come head first. But it was super busy, even with a planned C-section!

Once the delivery team was set, we planned the equally important support teams. These individuals included NICU specialists, anesthesiologists, obstetrical nurses, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, security officers, and members of our public relations team. We also arranged for the St. Paul inpatient pharmacy to be on standby for the medications preemie babies usually need right after birth. Many meetings were held in preparation for this delivery.

Another major consideration was where the delivery would take place in the hospital. Of course, it would take place in one of the operating rooms in Labor and Delivery, but we also needed more space than usual, so we turned one of our adjacent operating rooms into a miniature intensive care nursery. In the space, we amassed the collection of equipment we’d need to deliver and support the quints. Each baby would have its own mobile NICU bed, which would facilitate easy transfer from the operating room to the NICU. We ordered extra equipment, such as special ventilators, just in case every baby needed extra help with breathing or other functions.

The five beds and five sets of equipment were labeled A through E, one letter for each quint based on birth order, and color-coded with pastel labels. This protocol not only made it easier to ensure we had five of everything we needed, but also helped us keep each baby’s blood draws and other birth information straight.

On Aug. 8, my family left Dallas for summer vacation. I opted out, concerned that the quints might make an early appearance. After all the time spent planning for the delivery, I really didn’t want to miss it. My hunch was right – Carrie’s water broke on Aug. 9, right around her 28th week of pregnancy. This is incredibly premature for one baby, considering full term is 40 weeks. But in multiple pregnancies, we subtract three weeks from the due date for every additional baby to get an approximation of when to expect delivery. Twenty-eight weeks (the start of the third trimester) is pretty common for quintuplets, but it’s three months earlier than a healthy single-baby pregnancy. 

We practiced drills, including how we would transfer the newly born babies from the operating room table to the waiting arms of the delivery teams and how we would relay messages about the babies’ arrival to other team members. The team even taped off areas on the floor where each of us was supposed to stand!

Five babies in five minutes 

I got chills of nerves and excitement when “Code 5 Quintuplets” flashed across my pager. It was time to put our weeks of planning into action. The team assembled and prepped Carrie for surgery. Then she and Gavin, along with the delivery team, got ready to meet the babies.

Just like we practiced, we delivered the babies via C-section one at a time over about five minutes. We formed a “baby assembly line,” transferring the babies to their mobile NICU nursery beds. Their labs were drawn and labeled according to their birth order, and the NICU team wheeled the babies out of the operating room to the nursery for observation. The color-coded labeling worked perfectly as we delivered the first three babies: Will, David, and Marcie. Seth came forth and wound up with a lovely pink set of labels! Grace was Baby “E.”

After the delivery, Carrie stayed in the hospital recovering for just five days or so. She was normal weight and fit and had no preexisting conditions before pregnancy, so that was definitely a health bonus for her and the babies. Of course, the pregnancy strained her muscles and back, but she followed our recommendations to a T and recovered relatively quickly from the C-section.

But being born three months early is tough on tiny bodies, and we wanted to be sure the quints were fully developed and healthy before sending them home. Will, David, Marcie, and Grace stayed in our NICU for a few months. Seth, who was the sickest of the quints, was transferred to Children’s Health for specialized preemie care. David got to go home in October. Next came Will, Marcie, and Gracie in November, and Seth finally joined his siblings at home in January 2013. 

I cannot overstate the importance of the family support that Carrie and Gavin received during and after the pregnancy. Another couple in this situation that didn’t have that support might be much more stressed, physically and mentally. And please understand that the Jones family’s results are not typical. Most quintuplets simply don’t thrive as well as Carrie’s and Gavin’s have. In fact, the American Society of Reproductive Medicine discourages fertility treatments that result in twins or more. While the Joneses hadn’t planned for all the “more” that came their way, we’ll always remember this remarkable family and how close their delivery brought our various teams, and we consider ourselves lucky and blessed for their positive outcomes. It truly took a village to deliver the Jones quintuplets.

It’s tough enough bringing home just one new baby with an older child at home, let alone five! But the Jones family did it, and they’re currently loving life in Papua New Guinea, where they live and work as missionaries. You can follow their entertaining and inspirational story on their family blog.

Interested in more behind-the-scenes stories and candid, honest pregnancy talk? Sign up below for our blog email notifications.

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Twins, Triplets, Complications & Symptoms

What is a multiple pregnancy?

A multiple pregnancy is a pregnancy where you’re carrying more than one baby at a time. If you’re carrying two babies, they are called twins. Three babies that are carried during one pregnancy are called triplets. You can also carry more than three babies at one time (high-order multiples). There are typically more risks linked to a multiple pregnancy than a singleton (carrying only one baby) pregnancy.

How do multiple pregnancies happen?

There are two main ways that a multiple pregnancy can happen:

  • One fertilized egg (ovum) splits before it implants in the uterine lining.
  • Two or more separate eggs are fertilized by different sperm at the same time.

These two different types of multiple pregnancy result in either identical or fraternal siblings. The difference between identical and fraternal babies goes back to how the multiple pregnancy happens.

Identical twins or triplets happen when a single egg is fertilized and then later splits. These newly divided embryos are identical. Children that are identical multiples will look like each other and be the same sex.

Fraternal multiples develop from separate eggs that are fertilized by a different sperm. Because these are different eggs and different sperm, the genetic material is varied. These children won’t look identical and can be different sexes from each other.

In a pregnancy with triplets or more, your babies could be all identical, all fraternal or a mixture of both. This can happen if your body releases multiple eggs and more than one is fertilized. In a case where you have both identical and fraternal multiples, more than one egg was fertilized and then at least one of those eggs also split after fertilization.

Are identical twins or triplets always the same sex?

Because identical twins or triplets share genetic material, they are always the same sex. The sex of a baby is determined by the particular sperm cell that fertilizes the egg at conception. There are two kinds of sperm cells — those carrying an X chromosome or Y chromosome. The mother’s egg carries an X chromosome. If a sperm cell carrying an X chromosome fertilizes the egg, it will make a XX combination (female). If the sperm cell is carrying a Y chromosome, you end up with an XY pairing (male).

Identical multiples start as one egg and then split, so whatever chromosome combination is present at fertilization is the sex of all multiples.

What increases the chance of a multiple pregnancy?

There are several factors that can increase the risk of a multiple birth. You might be at a higher risk of getting pregnant with more than one baby at a time if you:

  • Are older (women in their 30s are at a higher risk of multiples because the body starts to release multiple eggs at one time when you get older).
  • Are a twin yourself or have twins in your family.
  • Are using fertility drugs.

You might also be at a higher risk of a multiple pregnancy if you are taller than average or have a higher body weight.

Another risk factor for a multiple pregnancy is genetic. There is an increased possibility of a multiple pregnancy if you are a multiple yourself, or if multiples run in your family. This heredity trait is generally passed down through the maternal (mother’s) side of the family.

The use of fertility drugs can be another reason you might have a multiple birth. Treatments for infertility can increase your risk of a multiple pregnancy because procedures, like in vitro fertilization (IVF), often involve transferring more than one fertilized egg into your uterus. Your provider usually transfers more than one egg at a time to increase the odds of a successful pregnancy.

How common are multiple births?

Multiple births have become more common in recent years because more people are using fertility drugs and procedures, such as IVF, to help conceive a baby.

What are the signs of a multiple pregnancy?

The only way to know if you’re pregnant with more than one baby during your pregnancy is through an ultrasound exam with your healthcare provider. During this test, your provider can look at images of the inside of your uterus and confirm how many babies are in there.

You might experience more intense symptoms during a multiple pregnancy than with a single pregnancy. These can include:

  • Severe nausea and vomiting (morning sickness).
  • Rapid weight gain in the first trimester of pregnancy.
  • Sore or very tender breasts.
  • High human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) levels — this hormone is made during pregnancy and is what a pregnancy test picks up.
  • High amounts of the protein alpha-fetoprotein in your blood.

Apart from an ultrasound, your provider might suspect multiples if there’s more than one heartbeat detected during a fetal Doppler scan.

What complications are linked to multiple births?

Anyone can experience complications during pregnancy — regardless of how many babies you’re carrying. However, most healthcare providers consider multiple pregnancies higher risk than single pregnancies. This doesn’t mean that every woman who carries more than one baby during a pregnancy is going to have problems. If you’re pregnant with multiples, your provider will want to watch you for possible complications that can happen when you carry more than one baby at once. Your provider will talk to you about each risk factor and frequently check with you to make sure you aren’t experiencing anything concerning.

Possible complications include:

  • Premature labor and birth: The most common complication of multiple births is premature labor. If you’re pregnant for multiples, you are more likely to go into premature labor (before 37 weeks) than a woman carrying only one baby. The goal for many moms of multiples is to complete 37 weeks. This is considered term in a twin pregnancy and reaching this week of gestation increases the chance the babies will be born healthy and at a good weight. Babies that are born prematurely are at risk of another complication of multiple births — low birth weight.
  • Preeclampsia or gestational hypertension (high blood pressure): High blood pressure is called hypertension. During pregnancy, your healthcare provider will watch your blood pressure carefully to make sure you don’t develop gestational hypertension (high blood pressure during pregnancy). This can lead to a dangerous condition called preeclampsia. Complications related to high blood pressure happen at twice the rate in women carrying multiples compared to women pregnant with only one baby. This complication also tends to happen earlier in pregnancy and be more severe in multiple pregnancies than single pregnancies.
  • Gestational diabetes: You can develop diabetes during pregnancy. This happens because of the increased amount of hormones from the placenta. The size of the placenta can also be a factor in this condition. If you have two placentas, there’s an increased resistance to insulin.
  • Placenta abruption: This condition happens when the placenta detaches (separates) from the wall of your uterus before delivery. This is an emergency situation. Placenta abruption is more common in women who are carrying multiples.
  • Fetal growth restriction: This condition can also be called intrauterine growth restriction (IUGR) or small for gestational age (SGA). This condition happens when one or more of your babies is not growing at the proper rate. This condition might cause the babies to be born prematurely or at a low birth-weight. Nearly half of pregnancies with more than one baby have this problem.

Fraternal twins always have two placentas. The risks of pregnancies with fraternal twins are similar to those of pregnancies with only one baby. However, the number of possible risks are increased when compared to pregnancies with one baby.

Identical twins may have one placenta (70% of the cases) or two placentas (30% of the cases). The risks of identical twins with two placentas are similar to those listed above for fraternal twins. Identical twins with one placenta (called monochorionic) have risks that are unique to them. In 5 to 15% of the cases, they may develop a condition called twin-twin-transfusion-syndrome (TTTS). This is the consequence of vascular communications at the placenta level between the twins. Due to these communications, the twins may share their blood. When this happens — if nothing is done — there is a 90% risk that the twins will die in-utero. In-utero procedures are performed to decrease the fetal death risk for the twins.

Another complication that can happen in identical twins with one placenta is called twin-anemia-polycythemia sequence (TAPS). This is due to blood that goes from one twin to the co-twin because of vascular communications at the placental level. In this condition, one twin becomes anemic (low red-blood cells), whereas the co-twin becomes polycythemic (too many red-blood cells). Several treatments/interventions are performed when this happens.

A third condition that can occur in identical twins with one placenta is called” selective IUGR”. One twin grows well, whereas the co-twin does not experience much growth.

Another condition typical of identical twins is called twin-reversed-arterial-perfusion syndrome. In this condition, the heart of one twin pumps blood for the circulation of both twins. One twin does not have the heart and will not survive following birth. The outcome of the twin with the normal heart varies. Fortunately, this syndrome is rare (1 in 20,000 to 40,000) and it is amenable to in-utero procedures.

Identical twins with one placenta may also be in the same sac. They are called monochorionic (one placenta)-monoamniotic (one gestational sac). This pregnancy occurs in 1% of multiple gestations and it’s associated with an increased risk for one or both twins.

Your healthcare provider will diagnose the above conditions with an ultrasound.

Am I more likely to have a C-section delivery if I’m carrying multiples?

A cesarean section is a procedure used to deliver a baby through an incision (cut) in the abdomen. This type of delivery might be used for a variety of reasons, but it’s fairly common in multiple births. Your chance of having a C-section for a multiple birth is higher than if you were pregnant for only one baby. However, even in single births, a C-section can sometimes be the safest option for delivery.

Often, the babies aren’t in the right position for birth — head down. A C-section can also happen if you have a complication during pregnancy that means a vaginal birth isn’t the safest option for you or your babies. Your healthcare provider will monitor you leading up to your due date and talk to you about the best option for delivery.

What can I do to stay healthy during a multiple pregnancy?

Eating nutritious foods, getting enough rest, and visiting the doctor regularly are important steps for any pregnant woman to take toward a healthy pregnancy. These steps are especially important during multiple pregnancies.

If you’re expecting multiples, you have additional dietary needs to meet. Getting enough protein and enough hydration (fluids) is important. You’ll also need to make sure you get enough extra calories for the developing fetuses. One rule of thumb is to eat an extra 300 calories a day per baby. That means that if you’re pregnant with twins, you will need to add 600 calories to your daily diet. Talk to your healthcare provider about your diet and the specific amounts you’ll need for a healthy pregnancy.

Moms of multiples might also experience the typical discomforts of pregnancy more intensely. It’s important to take good care of yourself and get plenty of rest to help ease the stresses of pregnancy.

In some cases, you might want to find a healthcare provider who has experience with multiple births. Specialized healthcare can help ensure that you and your babies are receiving the best care available. The need for frequent, intensive prenatal care is very important in a multiple pregnancy. Talk to your family doctor or OBGYN about their recommendations for specialists.

Can I be active and exercise during a multiple pregnancy?

Exercise and activity is an important part of any pregnancy. In most cases, you can absolutely exercise during a multiple pregnancy. Low-impact exercises are a great way to stay in shape and maintain your health throughout pregnancy. Some low-impact exercises to try during a multiple pregnancy can include:

  • Swimming.
  • Walking.
  • Prenatal yoga.

Even though activity is wonderful during pregnancy, you should talk to your healthcare provider about the best activities for you. Some more strenuous activities might not be a good idea during a multiple pregnancy, including:

  • Jogging.
  • Aerobics that involve jumping.

It’s also important to remember that your exercise routine might need to change over time if you experience any complications.

“There is no one in our country who would defend the position of children in orphanages” - Picture of the Day - Kommersant

In March, the Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation is to hold zero hearings on the bill of the Ministry of Education, which tightens the requirements for candidates for foster parents. If the bill is adopted by the State Duma, then from January 1, 2021, the life of foster families will change: the family will not be able to adopt more than one child a year, all candidates and members of their families will be required to undergo a psychological examination, foster families will not be able to change their place of residence at will , but will be required to obtain permission from the guardianship authorities for this. Discussions on this bill since last summer have sparked heated discussions between officials and the foster parent community. Lawyer Anton Zharov, opposing the bill for personal and professional reasons, explained to Kommersant special correspondent Olga Allenova, how the new bill is similar to “Dima Yakovlev’s law” and what kind of help foster families really need.

Lawyer Anton Zharov

“Politicians often raise children to the shield”

— Why do you call this law anti-orphan, by analogy with the “law of Dima Yakovlev”? nine0004

— “Dima Yakovlev's law”, of course, is more vile — it is an attempt to use children in political games, to bring politics into the humanitarian sphere. Such abomination happens quite regularly, and not only in Russia. Politicians often raise children to the shield: remember Yarovaya's package, she also "protected" poor children from pornography. The new law of the Ministry of Education, like the “law of Dima Yakovlev”, deprives some of the children of the chance to get into the family. But if the “law of Dima Yakovlev” deprived hundreds of children of the right to a family, then this law will deprive thousands, and therefore it is more terrible. nine0007

— “Dima Yakovlev's Law” has deprived not only those who were supposed to go for adoption in 2013 to have a chance. He also deprived those who could potentially then go to foster families in the United States.

- True, but there are countries where intercountry adoption does not exist at all as a class. In Italy, for example, there is not a single such case: everything is within the country. And there are countries with a large share of foreign adoption. We are in the middle: we have quite a few children who are no longer ready to be taken by our citizens, but foreigners are ready to take. St. Petersburg has traditionally been the leader in foreign adoption, and it is clear why they create difficulties for Russian adoption there. nine0007

— In St. Petersburg?!

Yes. I am a lawyer, I can show with concrete examples that people do everything to ensure that the child does not end up in a Russian family. First, candidates for foster parents are swindled, then they are chased, then bring 33 more certificates, then you did not communicate enough with the child. Guardianship is waiting for these candidates to fall off on their own, but in reality they say that the child already has adoptive parents. Who? Yes French. The French are the last in line, and no matter how sorry the French are, but the child is more sorry. The girl is eight years old: if she moves to France, she will face a language problem, a cultural problem, she will completely lose all ties with the place where she was born. nine0007

— And how was the fate of the girl decided?

— It's all over now: the child was adopted by a Russian family, the court decision has entered into force, that's why I'm talking about it so calmly. And before the new year, my anger went off scale, because this is a mockery of people who just want to help a child.

— Russian candidates wanted to adopt a child?

- At first they wanted to take custody. Here is also an interesting point. A person can take custody, has the right. This often happens: first they are taken under guardianship, then they are adopted - this is normal. Before you get married, you should get to know the person better. It's the same here. You are taking a responsible step that changes your fate, changes the fate of this child, and you cannot always be sure that in the ten days that the law gives you to get to know each other, you managed to get to know each other thoroughly. Why is it necessary to explain to guardianship at all that a family can take a child under guardianship, and not for adoption? nine0007

— So is it illegal for the guardianship to tell prospective adoptive parents that they will only give the child up for adoption?

- Formally, the guardianship authorities can say that this child is going up for adoption, because there is a queue of adoptive parents for him. Adoption is a priority form. But the problem is that there is no control over all this. They will say something, but whether they will continue to arrange for adoption - we do not know. In a particular situation, the French with adoption are the last in line, and if there is a Russian family that wants to take a child under guardianship, it has priority. nine0007

“This draft law is the result of simple decisions of the first persons”

— Why do you think that the bill of the Ministry of Education will reduce the family structure?

- He was born as a response to the tragedy in foster families. The adoptive parent commits a crime against the child. These situations happen for a variety of reasons. And murder occurs for various reasons. Why is the murder happening? Someone drank too much and did something out of drunken eyes, someone went crazy, someone did it on purpose. These are completely different stories, and they need to be warned in different ways. Here are the situations when the adoptive parents committed a crime against the ward, they are different, and their reasons are different. nine0007

In 2017, 89 children suffered in foster families, and 22 children suffered at the hands of guardians. If you look at the statistics over the years, there are no dynamics. Today, there are approximately 433,000 children in care in the country, but in total, with all forms of family organization, there are about half a million.

We cannot always calculate adoption, because there is a secret of adoption.

Let's divide 22 by 433 thousand: it turns out five thousandths of a percent - sociology does not work at all on such figures. These are excesses that can happen anytime, anywhere. Moreover, these 22 cases are not described, we do not know how many of these parents went crazy, how many of them committed situational crimes, how many crimes were caused by the real personal qualities of the guardian and how many of them were intentional. nine0007

So this bill is about 22 cases. It was born from the idea that we will now come up with something magical and erase this number 22 with an eraser. In fact, 22 in half a million is not a sociological figure, it is largely a coincidence. Because with such numbers, violence in foster families cannot be seen as a trend.

With its bill, the Ministry of Education proposes to make a large sieve through which they will sift everyone and remove the idiots. But the problem is that these crimes are committed not only and not so much by idiots. If a mother has six children and she is alone, then a breakdown situation is expected. nine0007

— Maybe that's why you can't send six children to one family at once?

— I generally agree with the proposal to send one child a year to a foster family. What is a foster family? This is an attempt to replace the natural family. In a natural family, children do not appear more than once a year, so this proposal is normal. Of course, exceptions are needed for brothers and sisters, but they are provided for there.

As for the total number of children in a foster family, there can be no strict limits. Situations are different, people are different, they have different resources. But today there is a norm of the law on guardianship and guardianship, which clearly states: one guardian - one ward. Each guardian can have one ward, each ward can have one guardian. There are exceptions when two guardians are allowed for one ward, but this should be explained separately. In some cases, it is possible to appoint one person as the guardian of several children, but at the same time, the guardianship and guardianship authorities must indicate for what reason another guardian cannot be appointed to this child. What are our guardians doing? They generally ignore this existing norm, distribute eight children under guardianship, and then shout that the guardian is bad. nine0007

— You are now talking about guardianship, but what if it is a foster family? There are also some other laws.

- Look, the foster family is not about the store where six children were chosen. This is a story about the fact that someone gives you specific children to raise. And you sign an agreement with the state. Anything can be written in this contract. So who now prevents the guardianship authorities from determining the number of children in a particular family? Nobody. They just don't know the laws.

— So you think that in the new draft law this rule about the numerical limitation is redundant?

Absolutely. This restriction is already provided for by law. Do you know what amazes me? Here in Moscow it was necessary to promote a stupid pilot project when you take five children and get an apartment. Moreover, children are given difficult ones: with severe, mental disabilities, teenagers.

If the child has grown, you must take the next one within three months so as not to be thrown out of this project. nine0007

That is, this is a story about how the state allows you to earn an apartment with the help of children. At the same time, with the other hand, the state comes up with a law that says that the transfer of five children to a family is a risk. But that's not possible.

— Is there anything good in this bill?

- There is a perfectly sound suggestion. Today, the removal of the duties of a guardian or adoptive parent is an irrevocable procedure. If you are suspended, you will never be able to get that child back. The bill gives you the right to fight for his return. And if this norm is separated into a separate law, it will have no opponents at all. But now this norm has been introduced into the bill, like a spoonful of honey in a pile of manure. nine0007

“As long as there is no law on psychological assistance to the population, we cannot talk about any psychological examinations”

— The draft law proposes that all candidates for foster parents undergo a socio-psychological examination. What's wrong with him?

— Everything is wrong with him. The bill expands the list of people who will now be responsible for the murders. This will include a psychologist who wrote a conclusion that the candidate is suitable for foster parents. Is there such an idiot among psychologists who will write a potential sentence for himself? No. Even today they periodically write all sorts of ambivalent nonsense for safety net. For example, increased aggressiveness is written to men, although it is clear to the horse that aggressiveness in men, as a rule, is higher than in women. nine0007

Or another example: a psychologist wrote to a mother of many children that she had “a vacuum in the sphere of beauty, nature and art”. Here you are laughing, and the result was a bad conclusion of custody.

And the psychologist's second argument was that mom and dad did not agree on what kind of child they wanted to take into the family. Dad says that he would like to take one child over 9 years old, a boy or a girl, rather a girl, and mom said that from 8 to 12, one or two, a boy or a girl. And in this the psychologist saw a contradiction. nine0007

Is this a true story?

- This is a paper issued to specific people in the Moscow region. Here some strange people sit and write conclusions about your vacuum in the field of beauty, and then the guardianship authorities issue a conclusion that, according to the results of a psychological examination, you are no good, goodbye.

— Is it possible to dispute this socio-psychological conclusion?

- You can't, because it's an opinion, you can't argue with an opinion.

— Can I have a second examination, an alternative one?

- Well, there will be one opinion against another.

— Will this help in court?

- It will not help, this is not an examination. It was no coincidence that the Human Rights Council opposed this bill. They clearly said: as long as there is no law on psychological assistance to the population, we cannot talk about any psychological examinations.

It is clear what a lawyer is, what a journalist is. And who is a psychologist? The bill says, in essence, that a psychologist is a person who has the word "psychologist" in the name of his self-identification. The teacher-psychologist - is he a psychologist or a teacher? Here a man worked as a teacher in an orphanage, then he went through a three-month retraining course, it turned out to be a teacher-psychologist. Is he qualified enough to conduct such an examination? I don't know, it's not written anywhere. Yes, they will later reveal this in the regulations, but now I have to agree that some obscure person, about whom nothing is defined in the law, will make decisions about me. Therefore, first it is necessary to adopt a law on psychological assistance and guarantees for its provision, and then all other laws. A lawyer has a lawyer's secret, a journalist can also not disclose the source - they are protected by law, what about a psychologist? He is defenseless on his own. nine0007

— The psychologist also cannot disclose the content of therapy.

Who told you? Where is that written? This is not even a code, but an ethical representation of a particular individual. Here's an example for you. I was invited to a meeting at the State Budgetary Institution "Sputnik", where there was a conversation about professional standards. And so the employees of this State Budgetary Institution, psychologists, begin to give examples in the audience: they name the names of children, they tell stories. They sincerely do not understand why it is impossible to do this. And it is the State Budgetary Institution that conducts a psychological examination of candidates and children. What is the secret of a psychologist and how he will answer if he divulges it, is not fixed anywhere. nine0007

Finally, I don't understand the idea of ​​examining a family before a child is born. How can you tell what kind of husband I am if you don't see your wife next to you?

— Perhaps this will help prevent a person with pathological inclinations right away?

- A candidate for adoptive parents, according to the law in force today, must undergo a medical examination, including a psychiatrist. And the authors of the new bill propose to engage in eugenics. They argue that there are some constructive character traits and there are destructive character traits. This is a flawed ideology, artificial selection. nine0007

In fact, there are no good qualities and bad qualities in a person. At different times in life, different qualities are required. And it is impossible to put a person on a chair and, based on his current state, draw a conclusion about what kind of parent he can be.

Not for this child, but in general. Well, what kind of nonsense? The next step is to test before the hospital and say: “You will be a bad mother, you don’t need children.”

— So you think that the examination of a candidate before the birth of a child in his family does not make any sense? nine0004

— Yes, the socio-psychological examination is mostly pointless. The current inspection of guardianship bodies is no worse. Here a person comes and examines the living conditions: is there a bed for a child or a place for this bed, are there all the conditions necessary for a child, which are provided for by Article 127 of the Family Code. We can talk about the rest only when a specific child appears.

— And if the child has already appeared in the family, is such a socio-psychological examination necessary after some time? nine0004

— What will you test in this family if everything is fine?

— If not everything is fine, but the family does not speak?

- This is the last thing left for me to say about the psychological examination. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. Psychology is based on two principles: the principle of trust and the principle of inquiry. A request is when a person wants to get help from a psychologist. The psychologist cannot impose help on you, the request always comes from you. And here the issue of trust is very important. If I don't trust the psychologist, the picture of reality will be shifted. I can say that I trust, but in fact lie, and we will not see the truth. Therefore, even psychopaths who are really afraid to give children will pass all these tests perfectly. Finally, if a mother does not want to go to a psychologist, she will always find a reason. The child is coughing, someone is sick. nine0007

- All right. But here is a child in the family, there is no one to complain to, and then a psychologist comes, and he can be told that you are in a bad family.

- Let me tell you how this is happening now. A psychologist from the State Budgetary Institution "Childhood" arrives. Mom is driven out to the kitchen, the 11-year-old girl is told: “If your guardian beats you, you call me.” The girl is stressed. She had just adapted in the family, she had just begun to trust this family - and then the official aunt comes in, it was with such aunts that the girl had relationships in the orphanage for the previous seven years. nine0007

— But now you are talking about non-professional psychologists.

—They have diplomas, what do you mean unprofessional? This is the real story. Today it seems to someone that support is such a magical house in which you will get everything you need: a speech therapist, a psychologist, a lawyer. But the new bill does not provide for a request from you, the adoptive parents. It provides that if the guardianship authorities decide to help you, you will not turn away from it. And those people who are here today will provide this assistance. With their diplomas, their experience. And where it is convenient for them, not for you. nine0007

— How is that?

- The foster family will be obliged to receive the support that they are "prescribed". Here is a region, for example, Tuva. We have a speech therapist in this area, and all foster families go to this speech therapist. We have a psychologist in that area. So everyone go there. And in the third district there is a lawyer - go and see him. And it doesn’t matter that it’s 60 or 100 km from your house to a lawyer or psychologist — we sent you, and you are obliged to comply. Here is what is written in this law. The only thing that we, social activists, managed to add to it was the opportunity for the family to choose their own escort service. But this pill does not make porridge sweet. In Moscow, for example, a family can do this - there is a choice, but in Tuva there will be problems. And somewhere in general, for 300 miles, there is one former orphanage in which the child spent half his life, and now he will be dragged there “for escort”. And the family will be one on one with this institution. And this is all done to protect children. nine0007

“There is no evidence that the footage affects the fate of the child”

— The bill proposes to take into account square meters of living space when placing a child in a family. Do you agree with this?

- Also not. Housing standards are an economic parameter, as is the minimum wage. It depends on how much housing the state has. Once upon a time, when you and I were born, it was 6 sq. m per person. And now 10-11 sq. m per person. Well, here's an example: a family of three lives in apartment 39sq. m. This is a small-sized Soviet nine-story building with a three-room apartment. And the family wants to take one child. Everyone will fit there, but 1 sq. m to pick up this child.

There are no studies, no evidence that footage in any way affects the fate of the child.

That is, no one told us that all crimes against children were committed in small spaces.

Just made up a number. What is it for? Guardianship and guardianship authorities should have formal requirements in order to refuse even more. nine0007

— What about restrictions on the right to move?

— Let's move on. The family lives in the Krasnoyarsk Territory, dad's length of service in the police has ended, the family decides to change the regional center of the Krasnoyarsk Territory to the Krasnodar Territory. Maybe in the Krasnoyarsk Territory they have an apartment of 80 sq. m in the regional center, and in Tuapse they can buy a kopeck piece of 45 sq. m. Many people don’t have the money to first buy a new one, make repairs, and then sell the old one. They sold here and bought there. In the kitchen, the floor has been nailed up and all four of us sleep there while they make repairs in the room. Guardianship is coming. There is a refrigerator, there is a toilet, there are minimum conditions. But repairs are being made. If the situation is today, then an act is written: they say, repairs are being made, they need to be checked in a month. A month later they come - the repairs have already been done, everyone is sleeping in their beds. What does the bill propose? You will first fully prepare the room in which you will move. And only after the custody recognizes it as suitable for your family to live in, you will receive permission to move. Most people won't have that opportunity. This immediately limits mobility. nine0007

— I have heard about cases where children are transported to very poor conditions in order to receive benefits higher than in their region.

- Well, there are only five cases when they were brought to dugouts, and you don't know how to solve this problem? Well, take the child, since he was settled in a dugout. You are a guardian! And you limit the life of everyone because of a few cases. You forbid people to migrate, to travel around the country. You can not do it this way.

Exactly three regions support this part of the bill: Moscow, Moscow region and Krasnodar region. They say: "We have started guardian tourism." But let's define terms. Moving is a lot of stress for everyone. And if a family decides to move to the Moscow Region because the only place where their child can receive treatment is the Dima Rogachev Center, what right do you have to forbid them? You cynically do not give a payment to a family that actually lives in Moscow, because she came from Tambov. This is a question about the budget of the regions, and not about the interests of children. Such norms will violate the Constitution, the right of citizens to freedom of choice of place of residence. And all this, I repeat again and again, will deprive many children of their chances for a family. nine0007

- They say in the Ministry of Defense that we now have a queue of candidates for foster parents.

- For some reason, they think that they have 40 thousand people in the waiting list for children. But these are mostly dead souls. When you are looking for a child, you go to Tula, Tambov, Tver, Tolyatti, you queue up at the regional data bank everywhere - now you are not alone, there are four of you. In Omsk you find a child and go home with him. And in these regional data banks you continue to stand in line, and your profile is there. Well, you won’t go back to all four regions to withdraw your application, will you? Statistics do not allow now to separate the real people in the queue from the paper ones. nine0007

“Instead of resting, mom will wash the floors again, because now the check will come”

— What kind of help do you think foster families really need?

- And look how bureaucratized the family structure is in general. Why should a person who is entitled to specific things from the state beat them out? It seems to me it should be in one-button mode in custody. Appointed a guardian - everything else was appointed by itself. But no, a person needs to run to a lawyer in order to get what he is entitled to. Take at least the expense reports of the guardians. We have now anonymously done 31 interviews in 17 regions, and the conclusion there is obvious: guardianship in our country, in principle, does not understand what nominal accounts are, how reports are submitted. And the main problem that people talk about is that they are not given any advice in the guardianship authorities. Here people want to understand, for example, how to fill out an expense report, but they are not given advice. And why are you adding guardianship functions if they cannot cope with what they have now? nine0007

What about medical examination certificates? If you have three children, in principle you cannot go through medical examination at a time in Moscow, because you can only enroll two children. Even if you have five, you can only enroll two children in a row - this is how the electronic system works. And this is a prerequisite - once a year. For a foster family with five kids, it's a steeplechase. Here is a mother with six children. Twitched, exhausted, she just wants to sleep. You are not giving her what she really needs. And she needs, for example, a state nanny. She needs to go visit her sister, go to the pool, to the cinema. It works around the clock, without weekends and holidays. Give her a break. But no, no one does. nine0007

There are no state nannies, but she is provided with “accompaniment”. That is, instead of resting, she will once again wash the floors and braid the children's braids. And put those notorious oranges in the refrigerator, because now the check will come.

Previously, guardianship went once every six months, but now every month an aunt from some GBU drags around, who once again will say something to the child - and he will have to be brought to his senses for a whole month. They make one more check from the escort, there is no help here. nine0007

— Are you a foster parent yourself?

— I am an adoptive parent.

- It is noticeable that you are too emotional and deep in the topic.

— Actually, I became an adoptive parent quite by accident, like so many people. At first you start helping orphanages, and at some point you realize that the only help for a child in an orphanage is to pick him up from there. You can't do anything outside.

But the story of this draft law touches me not only personally, but also professionally. We do not have anyone who would defend the position of these children in orphanages. I am convinced that the only way to help a child in an orphanage is to take him to a family, and everything that is against this will evoke in me a reaction that is understandable to any normal person. The words "toughen", "restrict", "forbid" now reduce the number of children who will be transferred to the family. The task of this bill is to appoint the guilty, and not the task of helping, arranging children in a family - it is not there. nine0007

Rape is not a reason for abortion

M. ANDREEVA: A mother of many children is now in touch with us, coordinator of the public movement "Warriors of Life" Tatyana Chichvarina. Tatyana Borisovna, hello!

M. SHAKHNAZAROV: Good morning!

T. CHICHVARINA: Good afternoon, good morning.

М.А.: We are discussing two pieces of news: the fact that the government banned baby boxes today, supporting Elena Mizulina, and the second piece of news is, of course, the ban on abortions, which appeared yesterday the day before. What is your position? I understand that you are against abortion. Are you for or against baby boxes? nine0007

T.Ch.: We are definitely against abortion, and we are very pleased that the current Duma is more loyal to the issue of a ban on abortion. Because unequivocally, and from the point of view of science, this is the murder of a living organism, a living person, unique. Therefore, we are very pleased that now the public has finally begun to connect.

I will tell you more. At one time, when we actively asked some pastors to help us, they did not support us, because the pro-abortion lobby is very active in Russia. And of course, that's a lot of money. This is placental abortive material. There was an article here recently that the turnover of this black business is comparable to the income of Gazprom-2. Probably, it is still clear that the lobby will be very tough. nine0007

M.W.: No. This, of course, is not comparable in any way, I can tell you for sure, but the fact that they are significant is yes.

MA: Tatyana Borisovna, do you make exceptions for someone? For medical reasons, if a woman was raped?

P.C.: Look. As for rape, we recently conducted analytics and it turns out that if we compare the data for Russia on crimes of a sexual nature - and we understand that not every such crime is rape, and, let's say, we understand that it's not every day for a woman, sorry, "dangerous", then, in relation to the number of abortions in Russia, this is one pregnancy in the order of 10-20 thousand abortions. I'm afraid to lie, but this is measured in dozens. nine0007

That is, in fact, wouldn't it be easier for one mother to provide psychological assistance, let her bear this child, give birth to it. Because, firstly, there are women - and there are large statistics to confirm this - who were raped, they decided to leave the child, and they live with this child, they love him and continue to live with him. This time. Manipulation about rape is unacceptable.

M.W.: Stop stop.

MA: What does manipulation mean? Why do you call it manipulation? These are the facts, it happens. nine0007

M.W.: Yes.

If dad is a rapist, mom doesn’t have to become a murderer, that’s the point

T. Chichvarina

If dad is a rapist, and it’s impossible for mom to look at a child ... I can give you other examples when a woman gave birth to a child in marriage, in love , and then she was blocked after the divorce, she can not look at the child. What is it, now to kill?

M.A.: It happens.

P.C.: You see, yes, this is not a reason to kill. nine0007

MA: Maybe you need to fight something else first?

P.C.: No need at the beginning or at the end, it needs to be done in parallel. One does not exclude the other, you know.

A mother, a woman, needs help, a man needs to be brainwashed. What if they brought you a "letter of happiness" with two stripes, this is already a responsibility, already a living person

T. Chichvarina

This is one job. And another job is that the mother must understand that she has a living person inside her. nine0007

And let's get back to the question of medicine, because it's a really serious question. The question of the prohibition of abortion is not a question of the prohibition of abortion as such, it is a question of recognizing the human right to life from the moment of conception. What is the difference. Situation in Ireland where abortion is banned. The doctor must fight for the life of both the mother and the child at the same time - both for the life of one and for the life of the second, without setting the initial priority that if the mother is in danger, then we kill the child. No, first do everything to save both one and the other, and then ...

MA: And then it's too late.

T.C.: It doesn't happen - it's too late.

M.A.: How can it not happen?

T.N.: We have collected quite a lot of statistics. I'll tell you more than that, I'm not just a mother of five children, you see, I'm the mother of five children born by caesarean section. What do you think I hear from doctors since the third pregnancy?

M.A.: The further, the worse.

PM: Maternal mortality, 20 minutes to survive, and so on. Excuse me, but now I have five, cucumbers are running around, handsome.

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